Comments on: State Of The Game: Dungeon Crawlers http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/ A lifetime computer gamer's take on the state of gaming today Wed, 16 Dec 2009 22:55:08 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: William Hozie http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-650 William Hozie Mon, 21 Sep 2009 23:02:28 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-650 With the really really great ones, you know 10 minutes after playing, at least I do. Over the last 17 years, there's been 8 games that I knew the instant I started playing, I wasn't going to stop playing for years. 1993 Myst 1993 Doom 1995 Descent 1998 Starcraft 2000 Diablo II 2001 Halo 2004 Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War 2004 World of Warcraft I can't say for certain that Diablo III will be one as well yet, but it has all the earmarks at this point. With the really really great ones, you know 10 minutes after playing, at least I do. Over the last 17 years, there’s been 8 games that I knew the instant I started playing, I wasn’t going to stop playing for years.

1993 Myst
1993 Doom
1995 Descent
1998 Starcraft
2000 Diablo II
2001 Halo
2004 Warhammer 40,000: Dawn of War
2004 World of Warcraft

I can’t say for certain that Diablo III will be one as well yet, but it has all the earmarks at this point.

]]> By: geldonyetich http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-649 geldonyetich Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:30:25 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-649 We'll see. I've definitely looked at games before and thought they had the magic, but then played them and discovered that it wasn't quite right. It should be clear that it wasn't from lack of experience - you just can't tell until playing it. Movies or screenshots or other preview information can be misleading, they get you closer to the game, but they lack that essential interactive layer. Even when you are playing it, you won't know in just for a few hours, but rather after the "new game buzz" wears off, which can take weeks. We’ll see.

I’ve definitely looked at games before and thought they had the magic, but then played them and discovered that it wasn’t quite right.

It should be clear that it wasn’t from lack of experience – you just can’t tell until playing it. Movies or screenshots or other preview information can be misleading, they get you closer to the game, but they lack that essential interactive layer. Even when you are playing it, you won’t know in just for a few hours, but rather after the “new game buzz” wears off, which can take weeks.

]]> By: William Hozie http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-648 William Hozie Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:54:47 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-648 Have you looked at D3 lately? It has the magic. Like you, I'm not exactly sure what it is that Blizzard knows that other game developers don't, but it is with absolute certainty I know that they do in fact know it. One look at D3 and the D2 magic comes right back to me. I wasn't one of the first ones to jump aboard the Diablo train because I never really have been one to enjoy RPG's, but then I met a guy at work that I became good friends with and we shared our experiences in video games and he insisted that I go out immediately and purchase Diablo. This was maybe about a year before D2 hit the shelves. I was instantly engrossed in the game and could not quit playing it. About a year later, just as I was about to get bored with Diablo, D2 was out and again I was hooked for another 2 years or so of play. I had given up on any dream that there would be a Diablo III since as you had mentioned some of the team members had moved on, but as soon as the announcement was made and I visited the website and saw some of the gameplay video's, I knew then and there that it would become a reality. Prepare to lose a couple years of your life. Have you looked at D3 lately? It has the magic. Like you, I’m not exactly sure what it is that Blizzard knows that other game developers don’t, but it is with absolute certainty I know that they do in fact know it.

One look at D3 and the D2 magic comes right back to me. I wasn’t one of the first ones to jump aboard the Diablo train because I never really have been one to enjoy RPG’s, but then I met a guy at work that I became good friends with and we shared our experiences in video games and he insisted that I go out immediately and purchase Diablo. This was maybe about a year before D2 hit the shelves. I was instantly engrossed in the game and could not quit playing it. About a year later, just as I was about to get bored with Diablo, D2 was out and again I was hooked for another 2 years or so of play.

I had given up on any dream that there would be a Diablo III since as you had mentioned some of the team members had moved on, but as soon as the announcement was made and I visited the website and saw some of the gameplay video’s, I knew then and there that it would become a reality.

Prepare to lose a couple years of your life.

]]> By: Maul http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-425 Maul Tue, 16 Dec 2008 03:58:02 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-425 Upon finishing the read in your article and agreeing with you, an idea crossed my mind, something's wrong with Sacred 2, and also in Titan Quest, Hellgate London... They lost their RPG portion... I mean, the way you interact with the NPC characters in these games, the way you develop your character story, it's pathetic... The story is always either uninteresting or badly told. In D2 you are presented with your objective right away, and you struggle to reach your objective, and the NPCs are actually helping you reach such objective, at least this happens in your first play-through, you can't deny that on D2 first time, you pay attention to story and get amazed by the videos, the videos, the story is perfectly told with very good movies between acts, ART ! Does any other game have it ? NO ! The way the other games tell you the story is by a beatiful transparent textbox with text scrolling in your face and some actor reading the text for you ! In D2 you ARE pointed to a nice objective, in the other games I mentioned above, is the opposite, in all these games you play like if you are a mercenary right from the start... You are thrown in a area with some chaos and you have to help the local populace to get some lame prizes, you don't help them because you care, you help them to get their MONEY/ITEMS, and then there´s 500 pointless quests to do, that are completely unrelated to the main plot... In D2, 90% of the quests are related to the main plot somehow ! And it didn't need 500 random "bring something somewhere", "kill something somewhere", "get something from somewhere" or "take person/thing A from point X to Y"... Of course long games are good, but only if the game is good... It's a lot better to play a shorter good game than a long bad one... Dead Space and Call of Duty 4 have better stories than MOST rpgs, and they're extremely shorter. GTA 3, GTA vice city and so far to the point I played, GTA 4, have better stories than most RPGS... If you ask me what the future of action-rpgs is, I say : GTA4 with some inventory and skills... GTA NPCs are better introduced than Sacred2/HL/TQ... Way better... Story is infinetely better told ! You can see that I didn't mention San Andreas as a good GTA, it was a 5 out of 10 gta, cause rockstar almost did the mistake the RPG developers do, adding too much pointless content. I played every GTA more than once, but San Andreas, I was happy when I finally finished it... Upon finishing the read in your article and agreeing with you, an idea crossed my mind, something’s wrong with Sacred 2, and also in Titan Quest, Hellgate London…
They lost their RPG portion…
I mean, the way you interact with the NPC characters in these games, the way you develop your character story, it’s pathetic… The story is always either uninteresting or badly told.
In D2 you are presented with your objective right away, and you struggle to reach your objective, and the NPCs are actually helping you reach such objective, at least this happens in your first play-through, you can’t deny that on D2 first time, you pay attention to story and get amazed by the videos, the videos, the story is perfectly told with very good movies between acts, ART ! Does any other game have it ? NO ! The way the other games tell you the story is by a beatiful transparent textbox with text scrolling in your face and some actor reading the text for you !
In D2 you ARE pointed to a nice objective, in the other games I mentioned above, is the opposite, in all these games you play like if you are a mercenary right from the start… You are thrown in a area with some chaos and you have to help the local populace to get some lame prizes, you don’t help them because you care, you help them to get their MONEY/ITEMS, and then there´s 500 pointless quests to do, that are completely unrelated to the main plot…
In D2, 90% of the quests are related to the main plot somehow ! And it didn’t need 500 random “bring something somewhere”, “kill something somewhere”, “get something from somewhere” or “take person/thing A from point X to Y”…
Of course long games are good, but only if the game is good… It’s a lot better to play a shorter good game than a long bad one… Dead Space and Call of Duty 4 have better stories than MOST rpgs, and they’re extremely shorter.
GTA 3, GTA vice city and so far to the point I played, GTA 4, have better stories than most RPGS…
If you ask me what the future of action-rpgs is, I say : GTA4 with some inventory and skills…
GTA NPCs are better introduced than Sacred2/HL/TQ… Way better… Story is infinetely better told !
You can see that I didn’t mention San Andreas as a good GTA, it was a 5 out of 10 gta, cause rockstar almost did the mistake the RPG developers do, adding too much pointless content. I played every GTA more than once, but San Andreas, I was happy when I finally finished it…

]]> By: geldonyetich http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-412 geldonyetich Wed, 10 Dec 2008 00:33:16 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-412 A good observation. I often think of RPGs these days as consisting of an outside (the world and overall content count) and an inside (the depth of the gameplay mechanic). Often in designing an MMORPG, the inside is neglected. Often in designing a Dungeon Crawler, the outside is neglected. An all-encompassing game that adequately fleshes out both the inside and the outside is one truly worthy of the title RPG. A good observation. I often think of RPGs these days as consisting of an outside (the world and overall content count) and an inside (the depth of the gameplay mechanic). Often in designing an MMORPG, the inside is neglected. Often in designing a Dungeon Crawler, the outside is neglected. An all-encompassing game that adequately fleshes out both the inside and the outside is one truly worthy of the title RPG.

]]> By: Brother Laz http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-411 Brother Laz Tue, 09 Dec 2008 20:49:34 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-411 It seems MMOs and dungeon crawlers are two halves that need to be merged at some point. MMOs have the huge world and massive amount of content and variety, but require very little skill and the combat is typically outdated. Dungeon crawlers feature fast paced combat that is actually somewhat deeper, but have a tiny world and are very linear. Both genres fall for the trap of thinking that level grinding will replace actual variety, because in both genres you do the same thing over and over and over. Let me know when the first MMO-action-RPG-shooter comes along. I don't see why it shouldn't be existing already, considering neither Diablo 3 nor Warhammer Online is a significant evolution over Diablo and Everquest respectively, after 8 years. Of course, if you can milk existing genres because it's easier and faster... It seems MMOs and dungeon crawlers are two halves that need to be merged at some point.

MMOs have the huge world and massive amount of content and variety, but require very little skill and the combat is typically outdated. Dungeon crawlers feature fast paced combat that is actually somewhat deeper, but have a tiny world and are very linear.

Both genres fall for the trap of thinking that level grinding will replace actual variety, because in both genres you do the same thing over and over and over.

Let me know when the first MMO-action-RPG-shooter comes along. I don’t see why it shouldn’t be existing already, considering neither Diablo 3 nor Warhammer Online is a significant evolution over Diablo and Everquest respectively, after 8 years. Of course, if you can milk existing genres because it’s easier and faster…

]]> By: geldonyetich http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-409 geldonyetich Mon, 08 Dec 2008 21:11:19 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-409 You absolutely right, Retro, and I feel remiss about forgetting Titan Quest. I had so many Dungeon Crawlers going through my head at the time it somehow was buried beneath them. I've revised the entry to include Titan Quest. You absolutely right, Retro, and I feel remiss about forgetting Titan Quest. I had so many Dungeon Crawlers going through my head at the time it somehow was buried beneath them. I’ve revised the entry to include Titan Quest.

]]> By: Retro http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-408 Retro Mon, 08 Dec 2008 12:58:34 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-408 Your article seems incomplete without the mention of Titan Quest and its expansion, TQ is one exceptionally decent Diablo clone. Your article seems incomplete without the mention of Titan Quest and its expansion, TQ is one exceptionally decent Diablo clone.

]]> By: geldonyetich http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-406 geldonyetich Mon, 08 Dec 2008 01:50:40 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-406 It certainly has the 4-bit graphics down! But now that you mention it, yeah, the way the character walks into stores and stabs things is pretty similar. Rings of Zilfin was more of an RPG, though, being controlled kinda like an old Ultima game. I wish I could have got a video of the C64 version, it would have been better emulated with 16 colors and better sound. There's actually some pretty cool integrated arcade sequences in Rings of Zilfin, like a Space Invaders-like flyby of enemy monsters. Really, Rings of Zilfin probably has more in common with an open-ended Oregon Trail. Set overland routes and attempt to survive the journey by engaging in the occasional conflict. Collect wealth, skill, and spells along the way. It certainly has the 4-bit graphics down! But now that you mention it, yeah, the way the character walks into stores and stabs things is pretty similar. Rings of Zilfin was more of an RPG, though, being controlled kinda like an old Ultima game.

I wish I could have got a video of the C64 version, it would have been better emulated with 16 colors and better sound. There’s actually some pretty cool integrated arcade sequences in Rings of Zilfin, like a Space Invaders-like flyby of enemy monsters.

Really, Rings of Zilfin probably has more in common with an open-ended Oregon Trail. Set overland routes and attempt to survive the journey by engaging in the occasional conflict. Collect wealth, skill, and spells along the way.

]]> By: Walla http://dsob.wordpress.com/2008/12/06/state-of-the-game-dungeon-crawlers/#comment-405 Walla Mon, 08 Dec 2008 01:20:03 +0000 http://dsob.wordpress.com/?p=2153#comment-405 Cool, fun read. Is it just me or does Rings of Ziflin remind me of the original Zelda? Cool, fun read. Is it just me or does Rings of Ziflin remind me of the original Zelda?

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